Ep. 79 - NUREMBERG: A WWII Psychiatrist Finds Fascism’s Long-Running Thread
NUREMBERG (2025) Russell Crowe (Hermann Göring), Leo Woodall (Sgt. Howie Triest), Rami Malek (Dr. Douglas M. Kelley) Photo: Sony Pictures Classics
November 2025 marks the 80th anniversary of the Nuremberg Trials in Germany at the end of World War II.
In episode 79 Michon and Taquiena Boston aka The Boston Sisters talk with award-winning journalist and author Jack El-Hai about the James Vanderbilt film NUREMBERG based on El-Hai's thought-provoking book, The Nazi and the Psychiatrist.
Jack El-Hai’s book and the film explore the psychological dynamics between Nazi second-in-command Hermann Göring (Russell Crowe) and American psychiatrist Dr. Douglas M. Kelley (Rami Malek). The book and film delve into the nature of evil, the Nuremberg trials, and Dr. Kelley’s findings from his examinations of the Nazi prisoners that raise questions about the potential for fascism in any and every society. The discussion also touches on the importance of understanding historical events and the role of popular history in reflecting on the present.
After their conversation with Jack El-Hai, Michon and Taquiena share their thoughts about The Nazi and the Psychiatrist, and NUREMBERG.
Spoiler alert: Key moments in the story of the 1945 Nuremberg Trials, and Dr. Douglas M. Kelley’s story, as seen in the film NUREMBERG, are shared in this podcast.
ADVISORY: Be advised, the history discussed in this podcast includes themes of suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out to the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline by calling or texting 988, or visit their website (988lifeline.org).
“[Dr.] Kelley believed that the traits these men exhibited were common traits in our society, and not only our society, in every society, in every place, and in every era of time...and because of that, the war did not end the threat of fascism.”
Guest: JACK EL-HAI
Jack El-Hai is an award-winning writer with hundreds of articles and over a dozen books to his name. He has led workshops and given talks at prestigious institutions, including Mayo Clinic, Yale, Harvard, and Stanford. His notable works include The Lobotomist and The Nazi and the Psychiatrist.
El-Hai's articles have appeared in Scientific American, Wired, Discover, Smithsonian, The Atlantic, and many other publications earning him several awards for medical journalism. He has also received two Minnesota Book Awards, a McKnight Fellowship, and the annual book award of the Medical Journalists’ Association of the United Kingdom. Additionally, El-Hai has served as Board Chair of the Loft Literary Center, and president of the American Society of Journalists and Authors.
Connect with Jack El-Hai: Website | Bluesky | Twitter/X
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Purchase The Lobotomist , The Nazi and the Psychiatrist by Jack El-Hai and other titles from past podcasts on the MBGLtd affiliate page on bookshop.org. Your book purchases support independent booksellers and a small commission supports Historical Drama with The Boston Sisters.
NUREMBERG
NUREMBERG official trailer - Sony Pictures Classics
NUREMBERG presents a gripping historical drama that chronicles the events that brought the Nazi high command to justice in the wake of World War II. Written and directed by James Vanderbilt, NUREMBERG is based on Jack El-Hai’s The Nazi and the Psychiatrist.
In the film U.S. Army psychiatrist Lt. Col. Douglas M. Kelley (Rami Malek) is tasked with assessing Hitler’s infamous second-in-command, Hermann Göring (Russell Crowe), and other high-ranking officials. The Allies, led by chief U.S. prosecutor Justice Robert H. Jackson (Michael Shannon), assemble an international tribunal, the first of its kind, to ensure the Nazi regime answers for the unveiled horrors of the Holocaust. As he’s evaluating the prisoners for trial, Kelley engages in a psychological duel with Göring, uncovering the unsettling truth that ordinary people can commit extraordinary evil. (Source: Sony Pictures Classics)
Find out more about World War II and the Nuremberg Trials
"The privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes against the peace of the world imposes a grave responsibility. The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating, that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored, because it cannot survive their being repeated. That four great nations, flushed with victory and stung with injury stay the hand of vengeance and voluntarily submit their captive enemies to the judgment of the law is one of the most significant tributes that Power has ever paid to Reason."
Justice Robert H. Jackson (November 21, 1945)
The Nuremberg Trials in Germany began on November 20, 1945 (ending October 1, 1946). These landmark proceedings represented the first international military tribunal to hold Nazi leaders accountable for war crimes and crimes against humanity. U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice Robert H. Jackson took a leave of absence to serve as Chief U.S. Prosecutor and lead the allies (U.S., France, England, the Soviet Union) in these landmark proceedings that set a precedent for international law. We recommend the links below to know more about the U.S. involvement in World War II and the Nuremberg Trials online and in person!
